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Offline Papyrifera

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Kratom combinations?
« on: December 18, 2008, 03:08:00 pm »
The intention of this thread is to pull together information on using kratom as an admixture with various other herbs and substances. It is generally well known that combining kratom with stimulating herbs will bring out the stimulating properties of the kratom, just as combining with sedative herbs will bring out the calming, dopey properties of the kratom. Why mix kratom at all, one might ask? Some find the effects of kratom on their own to be pleasant but pretty subtle. If one pushes the dose too high, dizzyness and nausea are all the thanks you get for your troubles. Adding other herbs can increase or boost desired effects, without increasing the body load.

To push the experience in the direction of sedative/opiate-like, one has had good results using a combination of lotus (Nymphaea or Nelumbo species), chamomile & lavender blossoms. One has not tried other herbs such as kava, valerian, hops, or passionflower, but they may be worthy of investigation. Poppies (duh!) could also be used, though I question why one would mix these two.

To push the experience in the direction of stimulation/sociables, one has had good results using various caffeine sources: tea, yerba mate, coffee, guarana, or cacao nibs/cocoa. There seems a special synergy between kratom and caffeine. The stimulating properties, the urge to converse freely, and one's ability to do sustained physical activity are all heightened. Hours after the initial kratom dose, having a cup of tea or mate will pack a punch, as if the normal effects of the caffeine are more pronounced. One finds this combination passingly similar to cocaine or even a small dose of MDMA, without having the after effects of either.

One has also combined kratom with coca leaf, which seems a little less stimulating but more trance-like. One often desires to just sit and meditate, nice clarity of awareness. Using a combination of kratom and coca is also amazing medicine, when one has a cold. Decongestant, relieves cough, and takes all the aches and pains from one's body.

What is kratom with psychedelics like? One finds it goes well with mushrooms or LSD, to heighten sensations of euphoria. The danger is using too much kratom, and becoming sick and dizzy. NOT FUN while tripping! One should keep the dose low... Sometimes one finds the kratom takes away from the clarity and one feels a less "clean" vibration.

People always ask, what would KRATOM be like with SYRIAN RUE or CAAPI??? Caution is called for, as this is unexplored territory. The kratom has stimulating, sedative and opiate properties which may be dangerous in combination with the harmala alkaloids. One would expect the effects of the kratom to be increased, so a lower dose might be in order. Mitragynine and other kratom alkaloids are somewhat similar to harmala alks in structure, who knows how they might interact?

Once SWIM made some tea of mushrooms and kratom. As the mushrooms were coming up to the peak, one consumed a capsule of caapi extract and a couple tabs of LSD. Only then did SWIM remember there was kratom in the tea! Oops  :embarassed: The trip was great, amazing euphoria and no ill effects were noted. Hard to tell what influence the kratom might have had though, and this in no way means that the combination is a safe one! If one approached this, one would want to start small and work one's way up.

Alcohol in combination with kratom is to be avoided, according to SWIM. One beer or a glass of wine is usually okay, but any more alcohol and the combination is much much more likely to lead to dizzyness, nausea and vomitting than either substance on its own. Caution recommended.

One has heard that KANNA in combination with KRATOM is also to be avoided, as it can have strange and unpleasant consequences.

 :poundit:
So now it is your turn to share, everyone! Tell me stories of what people have combined kratom with, what worked, what was pleasant, and what was to be avoided?
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Offline greenchartreuse

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2008, 10:36:20 pm »
I have found a mixture of kratom, gotu kola, and eluthero to be a good combination to increase energy.  A store-bought concotion of kratom, valerian, horny goat weed, and damiana was found to be somewhat inactive, although it might be due to the quality of the product rather than the combination of substances.  (tingly lips and sleepiness- not much else :( )It's also synergistic with cannabis- cup of hot kratom tea and a pipe is good for meditative or trance states, although the sedative effect of both are heightened. 

As far as combining it with psychedelics, that sounds interesting.... wouldn't want to mix it with mushrooms due to the nausea that can accompany both of these, but maybe for some people it would be ok.  Maybe for the come-down phase of a trip it could be quite pleasant

And I agree about NOT mixing it with alcohol.  Yuck! 

Oh, and kratom is a good substance IMO to use for enhancing yoga practice.  I have used it this way many times and found it to be a grounding and helpful tool- relaxes the muscles, eases pain, and keeps the mind from being too distracted.  One problem can be a little bit of nausea from inverted poses, but for a gentle practice it works great :) 

Offline DayLight

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008, 10:39:39 am »
i think it was me that reported the weirdness from kratom/kanna...id like to hear more reports on this combo as ive never heard anything aside from my comment.

but my favorite admixture is kava kava. i use the 40% kavalactone powder. i know plain root has better and more euphoric effects but the euphoria is not what we are after here. it is the potentiation of opiates. kava does something when combined with opioids. makes them MUCH stronger. if i add a gram of kava extract i can get good though not strong effects from just 5mg hydrocodone. ive always been to scared to combine with oxycodone. afraid ill just puke or pass out.

mixing poppy with kratom results in one of the most euphoric opiate experiences ive ever had. better than oxycontin. the sedation was EXTREME tho. 
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Offline DrYRHead

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2008, 05:27:23 pm »
I had started a similar thread t othis one some time back, but it seems to have gotten berried deep. 

Well here goes, again.

 

Kratom mixes well with many herbs. Mixing it with other stimulant herbs will synergize toward the stimulant side. Mixing Kratom with sedative herbs will synergize it toward the sedative/opiate-like side.


A mix of  Kratom with Salvia divinorum will cause a strong synergy toward the psychedelic side.

 
Sedative Kratom mixtures/combos one had found of interest included; Kratom + Kava kava, "+ Skullcap herb, "+ Sacred lotus, "+ Blue Lotus, "+ Valerian root, "+ Wild/Klip Dagga, "+ Motherwort herbs(Marihuanilla), "+ catnip, "+ Amanita muscaria.  *_*

 
Stimulant Kratom mixtures that one had found of interest; Kratom + Coffee(the extract mixed well in hot coffee), "+ cocoa(the extract mixes well into hot chocolate too), "+ kola nut, "+ Guarana, "+ yohimbe, "+ betel nut, "+ Ephedra herb, "+ Sida cordifolia, "+ hoodie cacti, "+ bitter lime leaf and/or zest.  :mrgreen:
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Offline DrQuandary

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2008, 09:07:00 pm »
Swim took about 3 teaspoons full of LSA (made from 40 hbwr seeds) dissolved in everclear, smoked some ganja and had about 2 grams of 15x kratom mixed in with some double black Earl Grey (hot) tea. The Kratty Kratom synergized to creat waves of euphoria which were quite similar to Mdma. The trip mellowed but still left me energized enough so I didn't melt into the couch or anything, in fact there was some awsome breakdancing that followed. :dancinhappy:

Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 11:41:00 am »
Speaking of MDMA... kratom tea is a great way to gentle down in the latter stages of the experience. It softens the rough stimulant edges, yet at the same time brings back a little of the warmth and euphoria.
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Offline DayLight

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2008, 08:44:16 am »
ive found kratom to be a good comedown aid for other psychedelics like LSD. my preference for comedowns s the strongest narcotic painkiller available to me, but when i am out of oxies or poppy kratom is a highly worthy substitute.

now as for mixing kratom with tobacco!!! what do y'all think about that?

some get horrible nausea. like me. if i smoke a cig on enough kratom(anything above 6g really, with 5g being an average dose) ill get sick as all get out. ive even passed the nausea phase and puked. but on the flipside of the coin is the fact that smoking a cig on kratom also drastically increases the effects, as well as the quality of effect. i find it is not as warm and fuzzy if i dont have a nauseating cigarette beforehand.
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Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 01:01:44 pm »
I have never combined kratom and tobacco, but find the stimulant side of kratom similar to tobacco, especially if smoking the kratom rather than taking it orally. Smoked, there is an immediate stimulating "lift" akin to tobacco. Given that positive synergy between kratom and other stimulants, I would suggest something similar is going on when combined with tobacco.

I thought of another combo: this one worked beautifully in an expresso maker, packed with 1/3 yerba mate, 1/3 kratom and topped off with 1/3 matcha. Super-green and super energizing  8-)

Sometimes one has consumed kratom & yerba mate tea before entering DMT space. One felt the kratom particularly may have increased their receptiveness to the DMT experience, making the breakthrough "flash" easier to obtain.
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Offline DrYRHead

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 11:37:28 pm »
That could well be the case, for one recalled some dream about a DPT + Kratom combo. It was nicer then the dream about a LSA + Kratom combo.
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Offline DrQuandary

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 11:23:39 am »
Yeah Kratom + tobacco can lead to some nausea, its nothing to bad if your experienced with higher does of kratom. Just take it easy. I usually smoke cloves  instead of regular cigs with kratom, its a bit mellower and tasty

Offline tryl

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 11:39:46 am »
i've had some experience with kratom, on moderate to large doses...

i'm stickin' with half-synthetic opioids.  :-D

too subtle for me..

curious to hear something about first-hand 5-hydroxy-mytraginine IV experiences though.

although my guess is it's nothing really noteworthy.
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Offline Teotzlcoatl

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2008, 04:30:16 pm »
Quote
Kratom + MAOI's (THH, Harmine, Harmaline in combination or seperately) = massive headaches. I advise against the combination.
WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!


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Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2008, 11:53:28 pm »
Any more info on that, Teo? What's the source?

If it's just a risk of headache, that isn't so bad... Many people get headaches combining harmala alkaloids/rue/caapi with such things as caffeine/purine alkaloid containing herbs, foods with tyramine etc. Some people do not have problems with headaches, despite eating and drinking everything not recommended. So such individuals might not have a problem with kratom either, could be an individual thing.
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Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 09:53:39 am »
More on the kratom + alcohol combination:

I know I said this wasn't a good idea, as it makes nausea etcetera more likely. However... if one is to drink at all, one finds that red wine has a peculiar but enjoyable effect. Instead of making one sleepy and drowsy as one would expect, instead red wine seems to act as "fuel" for the kratom. One becomes very stimulated and feels a warm glow, almost like a low dose of MDMA. One has stayed up for hours into the night with this combination. One did not find the same synnergy with white wine or other alcohols, so it may be something peculiar to red wine.

The key to avoiding nausea is pacing oneself. Drinking most of the kratom tea up front, and then alternating between sipping wine and tea slowly for the rest of the evening. IF YOU FEEL ANY NAUSEA STOP RIGHT AWAY! Remember the effects will creep up on you.
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2009, 04:13:47 pm »
I had started a similar thread t othis one some time back, but it seems to have gotten berried deep. 

Well here goes, again.



Sigh. "Unberried":

http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php/topic,24603.msg244363.html#msg244363



Other threads that talk about Kratom combos:

Topic: Kratom with an MAOI?
http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php/topic,19605.msg194642.html#msg194642

Topic: kratom plus DXM - works nicely
http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php/topic,6837.msg61786.html#msg61786

Topic: How to potentiaite the effects of LSD? 
http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php/topic,18197.msg188827.html#msg188827

Topic: Kratom and applesauce
http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php/topic,2333.msg23599.html#msg23599

Offline DrYRHead

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2009, 02:03:12 am »
Thanks for the Archeology digging.
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Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2009, 07:08:27 pm »
Indeed, thanks for pulling that together U  :-)

Recently one has been drinking reishi mushroom tea on a daily basis. Surprisingly, a small dose of kratom (~5 grams, double boiled) had a much stronger effect than expected. One noticed a much sharper onset, with more euphoria than usual. Also one got some nausea, which usually doesn't happen to them at that dose. There may be a synergistic effect occuring here, to be explored  :-)
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Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2009, 04:36:47 pm »
One tried smoking a water extract of Phalaris arundinacea after drinking ~15 grams of kratom powder made into tea. The Phalaris did not have too strong of an effect at first, smoking in a pipe caused it to bubble up and burn slowly. However after several inhalations a deep relaxation and moderately psychedelic effects came over one. It reminded one of harmala alkaloids, one layed down in a state of meditation and became very relaxed and somewhat dissociated from the body. There were closed eye visuals of coloured geometric patterns, nothing too fancy but still nice. It also reminded one of a little of an opium dream state. Stayed in this meditation for about an hour, after which one returned to simply being kratomified. This was a pleasant combination.

One also tried today adding some kava tincture to a kratom tea. Not sure if enough tincture was used, although one felt more of a "heavy" sedating buzz than normal. It seemed to push the kratom towards the sedative/opiate side. The tincture one used is old and possibly has degraded.
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Offline DrYRHead

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 12:54:38 am »
Ya, the Kava + Kratom mix was a nice one.
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Offline DayLight

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 11:08:13 am »
somewhere i heard kava supresses liver enzymes to help drugs like opioids act faster and harder. but looking back the source for the info was a very poor one and i am not sure of the accuracy. but kava, aside from adding its own psychoactive effect, seem to increase effects from opiates a whole lot.
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Offline DrYRHead

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2009, 10:34:36 pm »
I suspect that Kava's hepatotoxic effects are being exaggerated ever since that bad batch of it that was not well cleaned hit the EU market.
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Offline -

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2009, 03:16:51 pm »
More on the kratom + alcohol combination:

I know I said this wasn't a good idea, as it makes nausea etcetera more likely. However... if one is to drink at all, one finds that red wine has a peculiar but enjoyable effect. Instead of making one sleepy and drowsy as one would expect, instead red wine seems to act as "fuel" for the kratom. One becomes very stimulated and feels a warm glow, almost like a low dose of MDMA. One has stayed up for hours into the night with this combination. One did not find the same synnergy with white wine or other alcohols, so it may be something peculiar to red wine.

Makes sense...in the same ballpark as red wine/lotus brew?
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Offline Teotzlcoatl

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2009, 02:04:14 pm »
Try any of the following-

"Myrrh" ~ Commiphora myrrha

"Yellow Hornpoppy" ~ Glaucium flavum

"Blackseed" ~ Nigella sativa

"Dan Shen" ~ Salvia miltiorrhiza

"Neem" ~ Azadirachta indica

"Mulungu" ~ Erythrina mulungu

"Lousewort" ~ Pedicularis species

"Salvia" ~ Salvia nemorosa (????) ???) please tell me more aobut these salvias

"Salvia" ~ Salvia spathacea (???) please tell me more aobut these salvias

"Salvia" ~ Salvia transsylvanica ???) please tell me more aobut these salvias

Yan Hu Suo" ~ Corydalis turtschaninovii and other speices

"White Willow" ~ Salix alba

"Blue Lily" ~ Nymphaea caerulea

Nelumbo nucifera

red poppy and other poppies

Imphepho

Chaste tree berries

various "other" papaveraceae

Picrilima nitida

Red clover (trifolium pratense)

rhodiola rosea alkaloid (rosavin)

Alaskan opiate bush (rhododendron tomentosum)

Boswellia ~  Frankinsense



To potentiate the effects-

Chile pepper" ~ Capsicum species

"Black pepper" ~ Piper nigrum
WARNING: DO NOT INGEST ANY BOTANICAL WHICH YOU HAVE NOT FULLY RESEARCHED AND CORRECTLY IDENTIFIED!!!


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Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2009, 04:19:58 pm »
Alaskan opiate bush (rhododendron tomentosum)
Also known as Ledum palustre, this species is reputedly toxic at higher doses. The related species Ledum groenlandicum is worthy of investigation. In small doses it tends to be stimulating, at higher doses it becomes more sedating and potentially toxic. Making a tea of the plant is okay, but dark, strong decoctions (made by boiling the plant material) are more dangerous. Over time the active ingredients can build up in the body to toxic levels, as occurs with wormwood. Come to think of it, wormwood would probably be good with kratom  :wink:

As far as family Papaveraceae, Papaver somniferum is worthy and the rest (Glaucium, Corydalis, Dicentra, Papaver spp.) are pretty much garbage. Lots of different alkaloids, most of these plants will become dangerous at a certain dosage.

Mulungu and certain Salvia species are strong sedatives. I would proceed with caution, starting with small amounts and working one's way up if experimenting with these in combination with kratom. Neem has both opiate and non-opiate mediated analgesic effects. Sounds promising, just be carfeul.

The alkaloid profile of Pedicularis species varies greatly between species and also depending on season and region of harvest. Some of these alkaloids are likely toxic, and again one should be very cautious when combining with kratom or other herbs.

Lotus (Nelumbo and Nymphaea species) as well as willow bark (Salix species) are plants I would consider effective and safe when combined with kratom.
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Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2009, 11:35:45 am »
Kratom + guarana: super stimulating, even jittery at high doses  :dancinhappy:

THE BEST WAY TO PREPARE KRATOM! Hands down, is...
Put a heaping tablespoon of powdered leaf (your mileage may vary, start off small) in a large mason jar. Add boiling water, then let steep wrapped in a towel or shirt for ~20 minutes. Drink the tea slowly over a couple hours, swirling with each sip so that one is both drinking the tea and the gritty plant material. In this way, the alkaloids in the water hit you first, then that which is still in the leaf comes out later. It's like time-release kratom. By drinking slowly, one can work up to a pleasantly kratomified state. If you drink it too fast, nausea is likely... if you start to feel dizzyness, nausea, or hot/cold flashes take a break!
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Offline psilocyborg

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2009, 12:08:42 pm »
I've been experimenting with kratom a bit lately.  It's interesting that you guys report taking upwards of 5g in a single dose.  2g of the maeng da variety is a moderate dose for me, 3g is strong.  I do seem to have a very low tolerance to opiates, however.

I'll concur with the tobacco+kratom nausea.  No fun.  Same exact form of nausea I get when combo'ing tobacco+opiates.  Indeed, I have been a bit surprised how much opiod activity kratom has.  Disappointed even, as I was hoping for something a bit more novel.  Alcohol+kratom seems to follow this pattern IME as well.  One drink can potentiate it but anymore and we are getting into nausea territory.

Coca+kratom wasn't quite what I expected.  I felt like the stimulation of the coca greatly overpowered the effects of the kratom.  It wasn't until t+2.5 hours or so when the coca had mostly waned could I detect the kratom at all.

Kratom on the tail end of a light ++ mushroom trip has probably been my favorite experience with it so far.  Very smooth, stimulating and uplifting.  Sleep was easy and restful.

Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2009, 12:44:19 pm »
About the dosages, psilo: If one is using kratom on a semi-regular basis (2-3 days a week say) then there is a degree of tolerance to the effects that build up. Also, different strains of leaf can vary dramatically in potency as well as subjective effects. Some strains are indeed potent enough for 2-3 grams to be an effective dose, others may take 10 grams for the same intensity of effect. One has worked mostly with Indonesian kratom, and found 5 grams to be a moderately strong starting dose, though 2-3 grams was still noticeable. For one, 10 grams was strong and 15-20 was asking for trouble, nausea and vomitting occured several times.

An acquaintance has pushed the dose as high as 20-30 grams. He used a different method, simply adding a little warm water to the plant material, swirling, and chugging the thick sludge down. He said one could "ride out" the nausea most times, if determined, and that the resulting effect was worth the discomfort. At high doses, kratom becomes more psychedelic (visual patternings) and more sedating/opiate-like.

One started off using ~ 1 tsp of powdered leaf material, and worked up to ~ 1 heaping tablespoon. Two heaping tablespoons was TOO MUCH even with a tolerance. Unlike ones experience with opium, kratom has little to no withdrawal effects. One does feel lazy the morning after a strong dose of kratom, though. Harder to get out of bed.

The best substances to combine with kratom IMO are caffeine sources, particularly yerba mate and black tea. The black tea is a little more stimulating, and the yerba mate a little more euphoric. Alternating drinking cups of kratom and yerba all day can leave one in an elevated state almost like a low dose of MDMA. Talkative, social, peppy, and also relaxed and feeling good.

Kratom at the tail end of LSD is pretty nice, soothing the edges and making sleep easier to attain. Warm feeling.
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Offline DayLight

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2009, 07:34:19 am »
Also known as Ledum palustre, this species is reputedly toxic at higher doses. The related species Ledum groenlandicum is worthy of investigation. In small doses it tends to be stimulating, at higher doses it becomes more sedating and potentially toxic. Making a tea of the plant is okay, but dark, strong decoctions (made by boiling the plant material) are more dangerous.

i experienced no effect from varying doses of ledum groenlandicum taken by making a tea of the leaves and smoking the dried leaves in a pipe. the tea is very very tasty but no psychoactive effect.
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Offline Papyrifera

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2009, 03:20:06 pm »
Kratom plus Tobacco: You guys weren't kidding about the nausea!  :-( Was at a party and had been drinking kratom tea earlier in the day, feeling pleasantly buzzed but it wasn't too strong of a dose. Some joints were being passed around, had a couple tokes before cluing in that they were spliffs (tobacco added to the weed). Not being a user of tobacco, it usually gives one pretty bad headspins and dizzyness. However with the kratom on board this effect was greatly amplified. Very dizzy to the point of needing to sit down calmly rather than moving around, and feeling pretty nauseous. Also feeling jittery and overstimulated. Left the party early due to this unpleasant combination, the feeling lasted a couple hours before going away.
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Offline psilocyborg

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Re: Kratom combinations?
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2009, 05:33:50 pm »
People should really disclose the mixing of tobacco and cannabis before it gets blazed.  :|