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Author Topic: Old memories may get the boot from new brain cells  (Read 407 times)
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2a
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« on: November 13, 2009, 09:15:09 PM »

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/11/new-brain-cells-may-knock-out-old-memories/#more-14126

Old memories may get the boot from new brain cells.

A new rodent study shows that newborn neurons destabilize established connections among existing brain cells in the hippocampus, a part of the brain involved in learning and memory. Clearing old memories from the hippocampus makes way for new learning, researchers from Japan suggest in the November 13 Cell.

sciencenewsOther researchers had proposed the idea that neurogenesis, the birth of new neurons, could disrupt existing memories, but the Cell paper is the first to show evidence supporting the idea, says Paul Frankland, a neuroscientist at the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto.

Scientists have known that memories first form in the hippocampus and are later transferred to long-term storage in other parts of the brain. For some amount of time the memory resides both in the hippocampus and elsewhere in the brain. What’s not been known is how, after a few months or years, the memory is gradually cleared from the hippocampus.

Researchers have also debated the role of neurogenesis in learning and memory. The hippocampus is one of only two places in the adult brain where scientists know that new neurons form. On the basis of previous studies, many researchers think new neurons stabilize memory circuits or are somehow otherwise necessary to form new memories.

The new study suggests the opposite: Newborn neurons weaken or disrupt connections that encode old memories in the hippocampus.

Kaoru Inokuchi, a neuroscientist at the University of Toyama in Japan, and his colleagues used radiation and some genetic tricks to block neurogenesis in rats and mice that had been trained to fear getting a mild electric shock when placed in a particular cage. Control animals, with normal neurogenesis, eventually were able to bypass their hippocampi and retrieve the fear memory directly from long-term storage. But animals in which neurogenesis had been blocked still depended on the hippocampus to recall the fear memory, the researchers found.

Running on an exercise wheel, which boosts neurogenesis, also sped the rate at which old memories were cleared from the hippocampus.

But that doesn’t mean new neurons aren’t necessary to teach old brains new tricks, says Inokuchi.

“Our findings do not necessarily deny the important role of neurogenesis in memory acquisition,” Inokuchi says. “Hippocampal neurogenesis could have both of these roles, in erasing old memories and acquiring new memories.”

Essentially, the new neurons may aid formation of new memories by keeping the hippocampus from filling up with old ones.

Frankland adds, “This is about as novel as it gets in the field of neurogenesis and memory. It pretty much represents an entirely new framework that other researchers will chip away at for years to come.”

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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2009, 07:19:26 AM »

"The new study suggests the opposite: Newborn neurons weaken or disrupt connections that encode old memories in the hippocampus."

Well, synaptic pruning is pretty well established.
So I don't see this as  super surprising. Gotta clear out the  weeds
and  establish new  connections, with respect to memories, learning, understanding.
But I  suppose this finding  goes against  "Hebb"  ie, that  neurons that fire together wire  together.
These  guys break up connections.

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whateveryouwantmetobe
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« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2009, 10:03:58 PM »

Yea so why the fuck can't I forget all my bad childhood memories yet?!?!!?

5HT2a (or whatever) you should go to the Nature & Science websites and look at their recent issues, a few issues back they both had a special section devoted to Neuro-stuff... you can identify the issues based on their covers, it says it somewhere on them.  Lots of cool stuff including a Science article on learning and memory.
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« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2009, 11:45:13 PM »

Cos you need bad memories in order to really appreciate the good ones. DUH!  namaste
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2009, 05:21:12 AM »

Maybe some events in our lives are so memorable they fire more than the average number of synapses to record the same memory, and to record it in some kind of multicopied format. These "complex" synapses might take longer to break down, or never break down?


As for your bad memory b, did someone not wash your silver spoon? evil
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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2009, 07:32:41 AM »

Maybe some events in our lives are so memorable they fire more than the average number of synapses to record the same memory, and to record it in some kind of multicopied format. These "complex" synapses might take longer to break down, or never break down?

Interesting. If we presume what you said is true, could we also presume that the building blocks of your memories affect other memories and emotions in correlation to each other? To use a rather bad example; could today's emotions through experience of happiness/sadness be dependent on previous happiness/sadness? And could previous memory-blocks (PLEASE, I have no clue what I'm talking about here so I'm trying my best to not sound like an idiot; feel free to correct any newb mistakes) affect new memories? I read that through memory-recall some memories are altered due to compression and the mechanics of recall. Could the very brain tissue already in place have something to say aswell?

That was a fun thought process, but I've got a feeling I'm on a wild goose-chase. Still fun though.

Dang, I forgot where I put my pipe.
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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2009, 08:40:46 AM »

Gnome I think you are more or less right in saying previous experiences contribute to perception of future ones.  In terms of storing actual memories, I don't know if you can take it that far, but if your perception of a new event is strong enough then it should be stored right?

As for the "silver spoon" Jack... I don't think you don't want to know what I've been through... seeing my memory vault would burn your eyes.   cool  (<-- Those are the shades you should wear if you plan on looking.)

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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2009, 10:07:33 AM »

just joking with you old friend. whatever it was has helped shape you into the sterling vessel you are today. namaste
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2009, 06:17:10 PM »

Found it!

Gnome I think you are more or less right in saying previous experiences contribute to perception of future ones.  In terms of storing actual memories, I don't know if you can take it that far, but if your perception of a new event is strong enough then it should be stored right?

Alrighty, it just seemed like a really deep thought then and there  grin Ya'll know how it is...

But what does a memory look like, physically. I guess the big question nowadays is how much of our mind can be pointed to as tissue in the brain. Are all our memories, feelings, consciousness and unconsciousness and the whole shabang some thing or thang in our brain? Does my gut tell the truth when it tells me there is no such thing as a soul in the metaphysical sense?  I am quite happy! Why then is my heart so keen on telling me I do have a soul  cheesy I know the answer to that one. Some mechanism in the brain (The one involved in the grey areas of religious experiences) is guilty in that one, but does that make my heart a liar?

Ok, putting down the pipe for a minute.
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!!! Now with an added anthropomorphic personification dubbed Casper to be Gnome's companion and sidekick !!!

"I do have feelings, you know."
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2009, 07:14:22 PM »

Hard question Gnome.  They all should be there, obtained and stored in your mind in some form, ie, the cellular process that signifies "experience" and "recollection."  

As for your soul... maybe it tells you it is there because, like your brain tells you your memories are there, it is there too.

Then again maybe religion got the best of us a long time ago.   wink  
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 11:25:23 PM by b » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2009, 11:18:45 PM »

Does this mean people with Alzheimer's stand to have some amazing learning potential? If so, I can stand to make a lot of money exploiting them.  cheesy
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