The Lycaeum Forums  

Username
Password

Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Gramine ?'s  (Read 461 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Noman
Uberator
Ultracontributor

Offline Offline

Posts: 4093


At the Left Hand of God


« on: November 10, 2009, 12:10:42 AM »

Hi all,
I was hoping that the Lyc chemists could resolve a question once and for all.
Gramine occurs naturally in several grasses that also contain a few different psychedelic tryptamines, and gramine appears to be somewhat toxic.
The common thinking is that gramine is destroyed by the heat of freebasing, so is not an issue for vaporized extracts, but could be an issue in an extract taken orally.
Thoughts?
Because I have no intention of bioassaying this one, but would like to be able to give a somewhat informed opinion if asked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramine
Logged

Lips that would kiss
Form prayers to broken stone
- T.S. Eliot
Papyrifera
Loved by all
Uberator
Ubercontributor

Offline Offline

Posts: 2744


Botanist in residence


« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2009, 07:58:31 AM »

AFAIK a lot of the "toxicity" warnings about gramine come from studies in sheep and other grazing animals. Sheep get nasty staggers and die from a whole bunch of alkaloids, including DMT and beta-carbolines, so the fact that they react poorly to gramine is no big surprise. I must admit that the structure of gramine, being only one sidechain carbon short of DMT, is intriguing.


One has experimented extensively with various smokeable extracts of Phalaris arundinacea var. picta, which is a commonly available tricoloured cultivar of ribbon grass. Never has anyone experienced a negative physical reaction to such smokeable extracts, although the nature of the effects is subjectively a bit different as well as longer lasting than DMT (possibly due to the complex mix of DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, beta-carbolines and other alkaloids in the plant). So vaporizing/smoking such an extract has been safe in one's experience. I am not sure why the gramine would be destroyed by the heat of freebasing? Is it a particularly fragile compound?

One has never tried an oral dose, but if one was going to do this they would start small and work up slowly. Probably would use a threshold dose of syrian rue (say 1-1.5 grams) for initial experiments, and use very small amounts of grass (3-5 grams?). Also it is worth noting that due to the beta-carboline content of the grass, Phalaris arundinacea MAY BE orally active on its own, with no additional MAOI.

There are three reports on Phalaris grass taken orally on Erowid:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=65695

This guy reports using St. Johns Wort and Russian Olive as his MAOI portions. Now AFAIK neither of these plants has been experientially proven to be an effective MAOI. The Russian Olive has been reported to contain some amounts of harmala type alkaloids, once upon a time one was going to do some experimenting with this plant but never got around to it (see here http://www.lycaeum.org/forum/index.php/topic,18560.0.html). An aqueous extract of russian olive DID NOT glow under black light like would be expected with syrian rue or caapi. This is the only report ANYWHERE I have read using these plants as "MAOI", and like I said it is at least possible the Phalaris grass itself would be orally active without additional MAOI, so take it with a grain of salt.
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9062

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6611
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 08:04:44 AM by Papyrifera » Logged

I can say what I want to, even if I'm not serious...
I can say what I want to, even if I'm just kidding!

"The bastards are closing in, I can feel it in my blood!"
"Don't say that word around here! You'll get them excited!"
foreward
Lycaeum Addict

Offline Offline

Posts: 1502



« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2009, 08:24:50 AM »

Keep in mind that, albeit uncommon, russian olive is used as a food source, and russian olive jam recipes can be found online. I'd think if it were a significant MAIO, side effects would discourage it's use in food.
Logged

I've seen it happen in other people's lives, and now it's happening in mine. -The Smiths
foreward
Lycaeum Addict

Offline Offline

Posts: 1502



« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2009, 09:22:22 AM »

from http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/future_drugs.html :

Quote
The 5-methoxy homolog of serotonin is considered to be hallucinogenic in humans as is the 5-methoxy homolog of gramine (3-(N,N-dimethylaminomethyl)-indole)41

What do we know of the very available 5-bromogramine?
Logged

I've seen it happen in other people's lives, and now it's happening in mine. -The Smiths
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

The Lycaeum exists to foster the free exchange of information on a subject that is taboo in today's world. However, there are limits to what we can discuss. No person shall post anything which discusses ongoing or future illegal activity, or which can be construed as discussing ongoing or future illegal activity. A simple guideline for appropriate posts is to always keep them impersonal and timeless. Posts which can be construed as indicating that a particular person, even if anonymous, is engaged in illegal activity will be deleted and the offending member removed. Public trading or discussion of commercial suppliers is forbidden in all forums. Do NOT ask about suppliers for any substance, legal or not. Keep posts on topic or they will be deleted. *HINT: A post regarding amphetamines within Visionary Chemicals is not on topic.

hosted by :: lycaeum.org | powered on :: centos.org

Mark All As Read

©1995 - 2010 lycaeum.org

Page created in 0.097 seconds with 20 queries.