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 The Lycaeum Forums » Integrate » Science (Moderator: farmerjack)Topic:
 New information regarding bird magnetoreception

[Mens Rea]

We do not have an "internal GPS system."  

Whales or bird might, but you no.  

He's referring to the iron deposits that are allegedly within our nose; note that this has only been supported by meridian points in acupuncture, and never through anything scientific.

steppenwolf, the reason you think animals are superior is mainly because they are logical beings. All their actions serve merely to satiate their individual or community's need for food, sleep, procreation, etc. However, animals have never created Impressionistic art or Marxist philosophy or Neo-Keynesian economics. The reason humans' intelligence adapted so far beyond, is because animals have always been physically stronger and adept with superior senses on all levels. I might be anthropocentric, but you're on the other end of the spectrum, you misanthropist! lol...

[x]

He's referring to the iron deposits that are allegedly within our nose; note that this has only been supported by meridian points in acupuncture, and never through anything scientific.

steppenwolf, the reason you think animals are superior is mainly because they are logical beings. All their actions serve merely to satiate their individual or community's need for food, sleep, procreation, etc. However, animals have never created Impressionistic art or Marxist philosophy or Neo-Keynesian economics. The reason humans' intelligence adapted so far beyond, is because animals have always been physically stronger and adept with superior senses on all levels. I might be anthropocentric, but you're on the other end of the spectrum, you misanthropist! lol...

Firstly I am not referring to the iron deposits within the nose ? Where you got this idea from I have no idea ?

Animals are not logical, not in the slightest.

Also I do not think animals are superior, and I never implied so in the slightest.

As for impressionistic art, marxist philosophy or neo-keynesian economics, well these are merely games for the folly and just meaningless filler material in the great cosmic scheme of things.

Lastly I don't agree with your theory for why humans developed the way they did and the rest of the animal kingdom did not. It has nothing to do with physical strength or sense superiority.

I've noticed in my brief time here that your kick is labels. You may wish to divide yourself further by labelling yourself a anthropocentric, but I am not a label, and definately not a misanthropist .
(modified due to unfair personal harshness)

[gorfehttimrek]

There are a whole group of organisms that have the ability to sense the magnetic field of Earth.

This is possible because of a small accumulation of magnetic iron compounds in the interior regions of the brain,  near what we call the pineal gland.

Bats can have this receptor temporarily reversed with a large magnet.  A study is being done at this time on how bats use the magnetic field to navigate.

Humans don't have the collection of magnetic compounds in their brains.

Humans CANNOT sense the magnetic field,  BECAUSE we don't have the basic equipment we need to do so.  Not because we have lost touch with any ancient instinctual drive, but because we don't have the needed sensors in our heads.

Simple and easily understood.   Sorry Steppenwolf, but we as a species are among the many animals on the planet without a magnetic sense organ.    Many fewer have it than those that don't.


Please carry on and ignore this post like you did my previous one on magnetic experiments on humans and the alien abduction theory.   Can't let facts distract you from your visible goal just up ahead.


THE END

[x]

Simple and easily understood.   Sorry Steppenwolf, but we as a species are among the many animals on the planet without a magnetic sense organ.    Many fewer have it than those that don't.


Please carry on and ignore this post like you did my previous one on magnetic experiments on humans and the alien abduction theory.   Can't let facts distract you from your visible goal just up ahead.


THE END

The end of what? you have provided no evidence of anything, your facts have no revelance whatsoever, I am only ignoring your posts because they are to be taken with a grain of salt, they are just another of the many like them before.

I have no visible goal, I enjoy the journey and the destination is irrelevant. 

You look at one angle, whether we have small magnetic iron compounds in our heads, and you find we don't have them, so to you it proves to you we have no built in GPS systems, hahahahaha. How can you be wrong you have the external proof, hahaha, I take things alittle deeper than that . Stick to making dolls houses bro.

[luc]

If kermits posts must be taken with a grain of salt, yours would require more salt than we can aquire...

[x]

If kermits posts must be taken with a grain of salt, yours would require more salt than we can aquire...

You would need more than the Copacobana my friend. 

[prolixity]

Missing the point, your human arrogance see's no different species in us, just races or cultures.

But the bird kingdom is a different story for every subtle difference they display is reason to create a new sub-species, but they are new species, not race or culture.

What is the difference between, race, culture, species, they are all the same thing, divisive, catagories.

You see whats to say from a birds perspective Muslims would seem like another species compared to say Kenyans.

and as to your implication yes to your straight, controlled, brain washed mind I could seem alittle nuts, its nothing Im not used to straight fucks are everywhere, even here.

No, you are a fool.

To posit that muslims flock to Mecca because of some sort of magnetic instinctual drive is not only completely insulting to Muslims, but also entirely insulting to the whole of the body of science.  You cannot make a claim that somehow a religious group consisting of diverse ethnicities has figured out a way to activate "ancient chinese secret" DNA magnetoreceptors.

It doesn't work that way.

What is the difference between, race, culture, species, they are all the same thing, divisive, catagories.

So the difference between race, culture, and species is quite simple, and should be known by anyone with a fundamental background in the sciences:  you see, a species is defined as a group of organisms capable of reproducing, producing fertile offspring.  Culture and ethnicity are discretely different from speciation.  



  

[prolixity]

I can tell you don't like me much, hahahaha.

How did my metaphor fail? What do you think I was saying? and as it failed, how should it have been put?

I mean, if you really just wanted to say, this guy is a wanker, I don't like him, lets diss him, I would have respected you as a man, but saying I fail and then not giving an intelligent reason as to why, well that just smacks of Lamarkism, lol.

Despite your attempt to make your statement cryptic and "sciency-sounding", you stated that bird researchers (R) are so focused on magnetoreception (Y) that they fail to see other ancillary reasons (some random letter sequence) developed after their first visit, which become more important than the instinctual magnetic urges, why the birds are returning to their migratory homes (Z).

Unless the birds are thinking, "I got's me a sweet Summer House down theres, and there be sweet bitches up in the Southern Hemisphere", they're flying down South due to instinctual urges, not ancillary purposes unknown to those foolish brainwashed ornithologists.

Yeah, there's a new word for you, Mr. bird expert.   

[pshmell]

Humans don't have the collection of magnetic compounds in their brains.

Humans CANNOT sense the magnetic field,  BECAUSE we don't have the basic equipment we need to do so.  Not because we have lost touch with any ancient instinctual drive, but because we don't have the needed sensors in our heads.

Iron deposits in the pineal gland may be one way that many animals ave developed magnetoreception, but that is not the only way.
We can tell north-south via biochemical means as well. We can look up at the sky and deduce from experience where north-south must be based on the Sun's position in the sky. There are so many environmental factors and indicators for EVERYTHING! Obviously the biochemical mechanism I am talking about in humans is much more complex, dealing with memory and such, than a simple bit of iron in the brain. But it works nonetheless.

[x]

Unless the birds are thinking, "I got's me a sweet Summer House down theres, and there be sweet bitches up in the Southern Hemisphere", they're flying down South due to instinctual urges, not ancillary purposes unknown to those foolish brainwashed ornithologists.

Yeah, there's a new word for you, Mr. bird expert.   

Its not so much that they are thinking things like "I got me a sweet summer house down there" or "there be hot bitches in the Southern Hemisphere" those are human sounding thoughts.

The thoughts I imagine that they could be having and individually adapting to their already instinctual urges, are things like discovering new wind patterns and ocean currents, seasonal changes, family unit changes, any random thing that an individual organism can have that have positive outcomes that are better than the ones they're instinctually programmed to follow . These are the a,b,c,d,e,f,g,etc variables I was talking about . The individual factors. As one individual makes subtle changes to these instinctual habits, they alter forever the status quo and it then becomes integrated into the DNA of the organism, and over long periods of time these variables themselves become instinctual habits, and what was once considered a,b,c,d,e or g can all of a sudden seem very much like y. The only thing is it is all y.

"Yeah, there's a new word for you, Mr. bird expert." Since your getting bitchy and personal, I might as well tell you that your last sentence makes you sound like a fucking pussy ass geek.

[Newfound_wonder]

I'm surprised that proteins can function as chemoreceptors, photoreceptors, thermoreceptors, electroreceptors, baroreceptors, osmoreceptors, but not magnetoreceptors.

[x]

No, you are a fool.

To posit that muslims flock to Mecca because of some sort of magnetic instinctual drive is not only completely insulting to Muslims, but also entirely insulting to the whole of the body of science.  You cannot make a claim that somehow a religious group consisting of diverse ethnicities has figured out a way to activate "ancient chinese secret" DNA magnetoreceptors.

It doesn't work that way.
So the difference between race, culture, and species is quite simple, and should be known by anyone with a fundamental background in the sciences:  you see, a species is defined as a group of organisms capable of reproducing, producing fertile offspring.  Culture and ethnicity are discretely different from speciation.  

No man you are still the fool bro, and always will be .

You see I don't believe Muslims flock to Mecca because of some magnetic instintual urge you idiot. Where did you get that idea from, you are so literal, you have no comprehension of anything I'm saying and quite frankly I'm over it. You have a personal issue with me, and well thats your problem, all I can suggest is to get a life.

You see the comment I made about muslims and mecca, was to be seen from a seagulls perspective, but you are so Anthropocentric you would never see that, though I assume a few people here got it.

You see you, and I, know why Muslims flock (excuse the pun) to Mecca, but birds do not know this.

You take it for granted that all of educated humanity would know Muslims don't flock to Mecca because of magnetoreceptor reasons, it is because they are brought up in a religious environment that ingrains in them the thought that Mecca is an important place of pilgramme that must be made at some stage in their life.

But do you take it for granted that Birds know that. You see maybe we should study the magnetorecptors in humans who travel to Mecca, and maybe we will be surprised to discover that those who are impelled to travel to Mecca for whatever individual reason actually all display magnetorecptor data that alludes to the fact that their magnetorecptors were also drawing them to Mecca, Maybe that personal individual urge sets of those receptors off.

So if this data was studied by an alien entity that had no way of communicating with us the only assumption that could make to why one species, because muslims would seem like an individual human species to aliens (whether your stupid science text book confirms this or not), and they would also have no ability to ask each individual muslim why they travelled to Mecca, the only way that they could try to work  out why Muslims travelled to Meca is with science. What if they had magnetoreceptor measuring machines that are far more sophisticated than ours and could detect human magnetorecptors we are as of this point unaware of.  What if they're data showed that the magnetorecptors in muslims go crazy during the period of pilgrammage to Mecca, and they would assume this is why Muslims travel to Mecca, and they would be wrong, but they would also be right, be they would be wrong, as really individual urges were responsible for individuals travelling to Mecca, and the magnetoreceptor data was actually a by product of an individual urge .

You see I am not saying Muslims travel to Mecca because of matters of Magnetoreception . I'm not saying magnetorecption is in Human beings. I'm not saying birds fly south because of individual drives or instictual urges . I have no opinion on these matters at all. All I was really trying to do was teach people like you to look deeper into things, not to put so much trust in your established systems of knowledge. Because it is all relative and mostly bullshit . Sophisticated bullshit.

But why Im trying to help you Im not to sure Love.

[Mens Rea]

There are a whole group of organisms that have the ability to sense the magnetic field of Earth.

This is possible because of a small accumulation of magnetic iron compounds in the interior regions of the brain,  near what we call the pineal gland.

Bats can have this receptor temporarily reversed with a large magnet.  A study is being done at this time on how bats use the magnetic field to navigate.

Humans don't have the collection of magnetic compounds in their brains.

Humans CANNOT sense the magnetic field,  BECAUSE we don't have the basic equipment we need to do so.  Not because we have lost touch with any ancient instinctual drive, but because we don't have the needed sensors in our heads.

Simple and easily understood.   Sorry Steppenwolf, but we as a species are among the many animals on the planet without a magnetic sense organ.    Many fewer have it than those that don't.


Please carry on and ignore this post like you did my previous one on magnetic experiments on humans and the alien abduction theory.   Can't let facts distract you from your visible goal just up ahead.


THE END

I thought animals such as bats use ultrasonic frequency (and infrasonic frequency) to detect their way around, and detect oncoming natural disasters?!?!

[luc]

Iron deposits in the pineal gland may be one way that many animals ave developed magnetoreception, but that is not the only way.
We can tell north-south via biochemical means as well. We can look up at the sky and deduce from experience where north-south must be based on the Sun's position in the sky. There are so many environmental factors and indicators for EVERYTHING! Obviously the biochemical mechanism I am talking about in humans is much more complex, dealing with memory and such, than a simple bit of iron in the brain. But it works nonetheless.

IIRC, the leading theory for it in the gators was that magnetite made it possible for them to instinctively know their direction.

[whateveryouwantmetobe]

The paper I posted directly challenges the magnetite hypothesis:

(from abstract, last sentence) Furthermore, the data strongly suggest that a vision-mediated mechanism underlies the magnetic compass in this migratory songbird, and that the putative iron-mineral-based receptors in the upper beak connected to the brain by the trigeminal nerve are neither necessary nor sufficient for magnetic compass orientation in European robins.

[prolixity]

Its not so much that they are thinking things like "I got me a sweet summer house down there" or "there be hot bitches in the Southern Hemisphere" those are human sounding thoughts.

The thoughts I imagine that they could be having and individually adapting to their already instinctual urges, are things like discovering new wind patterns and ocean currents, seasonal changes, family unit changes, any random thing that an individual organism can have that have positive outcomes that are better than the ones they're instinctually programmed to follow . These are the a,b,c,d,e,f,g,etc variables I was talking about . The individual factors. As one individual makes subtle changes to these instinctual habits, they alter forever the status quo and it then becomes integrated into the DNA of the organism, and over long periods of time these variables themselves become instinctual habits, and what was once considered a,b,c,d,e or g can all of a sudden seem very much like y. The only thing is it is all y.

"Yeah, there's a new word for you, Mr. bird expert." Since your getting bitchy and personal, I might as well tell you that your last sentence makes you sound like a fucking pussy ass geek.

This is where you again invoke Lamarckism.  Individual behaviours and traits do not incorporate into the genetics of the individual to pass on to progeny.  If a mutation or random combination of genes influence the mode of migration of an individual, and do so favorably, then these traits will be passed down, but choosing to go southeast instead of south because the wind happens to blow that way one summer isn't something that will be translated to genetics.   

[prolixity]

But do you take it for granted that Birds know that. You see maybe we should study the magnetorecptors in humans who travel to Mecca, and maybe we will be surprised to discover that those who are impelled to travel to Mecca for whatever individual reason actually all display magnetorecptor data that alludes to the fact that their magnetorecptors were also drawing them to Mecca, Maybe that personal individual urge sets of those receptors off.

The Hajj is a trip most muslims make only once in their lives.  It is so important to them, that often, especially in Egypt, members will paint depictions of their journey on their houses.  This is not an example of magnetoreception and does not have any biological impetus beyond meta-programming.

So if this data was studied by an alien entity that had no way of communicating with us the only assumption that could make to why one species, because muslims would seem like an individual human species to aliens (whether your stupid science text book confirms this or not),

My textbooks actually don't offer any opinion on how space aliens view muslims in relation to the rest of the human species.

 

You see I am not saying Muslims travel to Mecca because of matters of Magnetoreception . I'm not saying magnetorecption is in Human beings. I'm not saying birds fly south because of individual drives or instictual urges . I have no opinion on these matters at all. All I was really trying to do was teach people like you to look deeper into things, not to put so much trust in your established systems of knowledge. Because it is all relative and mostly bullshit . Sophisticated bullshit.

But why Im trying to help you Im not to sure Love.

Sure I see what you're trying to say, but I'm not sure why you're making this point here.  The individual motivations of birds don't stretch much further than "hungry - find food".  These are hormonally and genetically driven machines.

Anyway, thanks for the help re: distrust of contemporary science.

Much love back.    

  

[x]

ix (pbuh) dude, you have no idea at all what I am saying, and you are starting to make it obvious. I get the impression I could go round and round in circles with you my entire life and still get no where, so I have given up faith in you . I do however get the sneaking suspicion some on here are starting to hear what I have to say and instead of reading my post literally and scientifically, are instead reading between the lines seeing the metaphors and examples I am using to illustrate much more important issues than as to whether birds fly north or why muslims like Mecca. But you can't see this huh? you only see someone trying to prove that humans have magnetoreceptors or that birds have free will. But I am not trying to prove this at all, and you can't see this, so why don't you go back to your textbooks and leave me and my radical perspectives alone. You will never understand my posts but I more than understand yours .

[prolixity]

ix (pbuh) (pbuh) dude, you have no idea at all what I am saying, and you are starting to make it obvious. I get the impression I could go round and round in circles with you my entire life and still get no where, so I have given up faith in you . I do however get the sneaking suspicion some on here are starting to hear what I have to say and instead of reading my post literally and scientifically, are instead reading between the lines seeing the metaphors and examples I am using to illustrate much more important issues than as to whether birds fly north or why muslims like Mecca. But you can't see this huh? you only see someone trying to prove that humans have magnetoreceptors or that birds have free will. But I am not trying to prove this at all, and you can't see this, so why don't you go back to your textbooks and leave me and my radical perspectives alone. You will never understand my posts but I more than understand yours .

I gotta apologize to you for coming on harshly, you're right. I was a bit out of order.

That said:  I truly don't understand what point you're trying to make, even after reading your metaphors.  It is apparently beyond my ken to read between the lines and grasp the universal truths within.  Alien Abductions, bird migratory behaviours, the Hajj, and businessmen going on vacation..  trying to integrate what you've said and how it relates to the fascinating topic of the biological incorporation of single molecule magnets but it's not quite computing.  

Carry on.

[prolixity]

I thought animals such as bats use ultrasonic frequency (and infrasonic frequency) to detect their way around, and detect oncoming natural disasters?!?!

This use is as an adjunct to visible light for vision.  Useful to sense objects, prey, and such at night, but not too useful for long-distance navigation.

[x]

I was going to carry on, but trolls have put me off . I have learned many years ago, like most serious psychedelic users, to keep my mouth shut no matter how liberating the knowledge I feel I had discovered was . I get dismissed as being a kook by many who are well and truely into playing the game, they usually have their little niche, and when it is challenged they defend it to the death . These are the powers that rule the external world . The descendants of the creators of the systems of trickery that keep us all bound still today 2009.

When ever I can I challenge these systems, I do, on behalf of all true psychonauts, but I have learned not to be to literal, because bulldogs like you get their backs up and don't let go of my leg and end up corrupting anything I had to say that was appealing to anyone other than you. So I talk in riddles, not to appeal to you, because I already know people like you don't like me, but I do it to appeal to that rare person on here who really does like to live off the grid, out of the system or out of the box . Because it is so hard to find other psychedelic warriors now that I come on places like this to find others . But knowing about drugs, and how to make them is not what being a psychedelic warrior is about, its about being brave enough to always challenge the established systems of knowledge and power because there is never an answer and we must always remember this, these are the systems of oppression as far as a serious psychedlic user is concerned, its all an illusion, and they create illusions of hate, sin, oppression and forced labour.

You see I was never trying to prove that birds have free will, I wasn't trying to say that magnetoreception was the reason for Hajj . I was really just trying to shake the foundations and give different perspectives or ways of thinking about things, and I could tell some were opening up to some of the things I was saying. You don't have to agree with everything I say, take from it what you like and leave the rest .

You sound like a man of great conviction, a learned man of serious intent. Just remember Neitzche and Newton both died unhappy and virgins, science and clinical observations aint the answer bro.

[Mens Rea]

steppenwolf, you can't just make up an entirely new system that is comprised of nothing except being "the anti-system," and expect people to follow. I mean, every time some flaming hippie comes and challenges these systems, they almost never follow universally accepted logic. Yea yea, I get it, according to you, the rules of logic we are bound by are adherent to "the system". But merely stating this as the underlying foundation for all your answers is almost a fundamental flaw in your own system, because it is an inherent accessory to the original system! You can still partake in universally accepted truths and use that same logic to poke holes and flaws in the system, you know?

[Noman]

The same way all lowly organisms such as ourselves have to at this point in time.

You're just going to have to come out and tell all of us stupid, unenlightened types.
How?

[x]

steppenwolf, you can't just make up an entirely new system that is comprised of nothing except being "the anti-system," and expect people to follow. I mean, every time some flaming hippie comes and challenges these systems, they almost never follow universally accepted logic. Yea yea, I get it, according to you, the rules of logic we are bound by are adherent to "the system". But merely stating this as the underlying foundation for all your answers is almost a fundamental flaw in your own system, because it is an inherent accessory to the original system! You can still partake in universally accepted truths and use that same logic to poke holes and flaws in the system, you know?

Wow, if anything I should be congratulated on getting you to post a decent post . I agree with alot of what you say, though you still like to try and speak on my behalf, Im not sure if this is a consistant trait of yours or not yet.

I never said the underlying foundation for all my answers, and even if it was it is not a fundamental flaw, because you say it is an inherent accessory to the original system, but the original system you speak of so fondly is an inherent part of another system, it is always evolving it is always changing it is never static.  

I don't believe in mantaining my system belief as a static, rigid thing either, as you imply . I allow it to be as chaotic, anarchic, and flippant as it wants, I have no problem incorperating any part of any system at any time for any reason . I don't say someone is wrong or someone is right I just see things from my perspective and have my say, much like yourself. That is all I'm doing, shaking the foundations, because it is my reality and my free will.

My only problem is with established systems and their corruption over time due to absolute faith and power.

[x]

You're just going to have to come out and tell all of us stupid, unenlightened types.
How?

Why? what could that possibly do for you, why don't you tell us stupid unenlightened types what your signature means?

[Noman]

Why? what could that possibly do for you, why don't you tell us stupid unenlightened types what your signiture means?

I love it when you start to get all mad and petulant.
I asked because I was curious - a trait that seems to be unfamiliar to you.
I told your stupid unenlighted ass that it was an excerpt from a poem that could be read in about three minutes and why should I explain further if you can't even be bothered to do that?

[x]

I love it when you get all mad and petulant.

Your looking in a mirror.

Boo.

[Noman]

I love it when you get all mad and petulant.

Your looking in a mirror.

Boo.

Love it.
Now do the "I am rubber, you are glue" one.
So how'd you meet the aliens?

[Mens Rea]

Wow, if anything I should be congratulated on getting you to post a decent post . I agree with alot of what you say, though you still like to try and speak on my behalf, Im not sure if this is a consistant trait of yours or not yet.

Just to clarify my alleged inconsistencies. I do not like you, but I do not hate you; I don't even know you. I speak up accordingly, in reference to the most recent post the person made--I try to do it sans bias, so that it reflects an answer that lacks in pretense. So sometimes I might support your claims, and other times I will refute it. None of this actually reflects my actual opinions of you.

I never said the underlying foundation for all my answers, and even if it was it is not a fundamental flaw, because you say it is an inherent accessory to the original system, but the original system you speak of so fondly is an inherent part of another system, it is always evolving it is always changing it is never static.

The information is always changing as we continuously strive to uncover contemporary truths, but the underlying rules upon which that information is derived by, do not. Therefore, you cannot make a mistake by adhering to these rules of logic, and instead use that knowledge to be selective about the information that is dissected. In this way, you can create your own methodology, but it will never gain disciples if it doesn't adhere to the most rudimentary sets of logic.

[x]

Just to clarify my alleged inconsistencies. I do not like you, but I do not hate you; I don't even know you. I speak up accordingly, in reference to the most recent post the person made--I try to do it sans bias, so that it reflects an answer that lacks in pretense. So sometimes I might support your claims, and other times I will refute it. None of this actually reflects my actual opinions of you.

The information is always changing as we continuously strive to uncover contemporary truths, but the underlying rules upon which that information is derived by, do not. Therefore, you cannot make a mistake by adhering to these rules of logic, and instead use that knowledge to be selective about the information that is dissected. In this way, you can create your own methodology, but it will never gain disciples if it doesn't adhere to the most rudimentary sets of logic.

Lacks pretence ...... Its all pretence.