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 The Lycaeum Forums » Integrate » Science (Moderator: farmerjack)Topic:
 New information regarding bird magnetoreception

[whateveryouwantmetobe]

Previously we had discussed turtles and magnetoreception on the forum.  A new paper came out in Nature studying robins and their perception of magnetic fields.  I'm not even going to try to explain (or think about lol) their data, I didn't even read most of it, but I did read the beginning and end of the article.  Their ending sentence makes having bird eyes sound really cool (see pdf). 

From the website:

How do birds find their way home? Magnetic compass information is known to have a key role in bird orientation, but how birds are able to sense the Earth's magnetic field remains unresolved, although two hypotheses have been proposed — the iron-mineral-based hypothesis and the light-dependent hypothesis. Here, reported data from European robins strongly suggest that a vision-mediated mechanism underlies the magnetic compass in this migratory songbird.

[luc]

Last year I saw a history channel documentary where it was said that magnets were taped on the  snouts of alligators in florida so that they just come back after being dropped off.

[pshmell]

Have you heard about the research with cattle and deer aligning themselves according to the earth's magnetic poles? The study was actually done with some Google Earth data.
They later found that cattle and deer near some power lines had their magnetoreception disrupted and no longer stood on the magnetic north-south axis.

[x]

Nice topic, wouldn't mind seeing a study on human magnetoreception. We are such a verbal and symbol orientated species now that we almost scoff at the thought that habits that we think we can explain rationally and scietifically, can actually have purposes that delve much deeper into the purpose of the universe than those of the individual, which much of the rules of rationality and science adhere to. I mean it is easy to view things from another perspective, from outside of oneself, God like. I can explain this in a metaphor about this topic, We can learn about things like the magnetoreception of birds . When can study their migratory habits and the 'scientific''studied' reasons they have for doing this. It leads us to discover things like magnetoreception, and the like . Yet I doubt they see it . I mean what if they think they go on holiday every year, they think its a tradition that they adher to and they do it every year whether the kids like it or not. They carry on thinking like this year after year and before you know it it is so imbedded in they're D.N.A. that it is nothing more than magnetorecption at work. We can see these things from our God like perspective, and they, I assume, can not. That is the metaphor, we are the birds and the All, God, the Universe, what ever you like to call it, is us. We rationally explain our habits, we are individuals, the other animals are not, they are stupid organic robots and science is so efficient it can explain exactly why they do things they do, like migratory patterns explained by magnetorecption. Is the annual pilgrimmage to Mecca magnetorecption, or even Mardis Gras. I mean Birds can't communicate with us personally, and if they had the ability to study us, without communication, they would watch us do things like attend music festivals, pilgramiges, sports events, inaugarations etc etc. They could study our behave, habits, and scientific data, but they couldn't ask us. Would they be totally oblivious to our rituals and habits and only see the statistics and think we only do the things we do because of things like magnetoreception. I mean we can get so complicated with thought. Ethics, rational thought, science, numbers, words, they all seem to explain things so well, but they are as much an illusion as the dreams we have at night, or as real? The more complicated we get the more arrogant we get, we get exclusive, segregated, divisive. We say we seek enlightened minds, yet we crave lazy minds, we are devious are like others doing our work for us, we say we reach heights of enlightened states, yet we only say this in the hope that those in search may fall prey to our words and throw us a penny. We go mad. We tell ourselves things and we just speak bullshit day after day until one of us stumbles across away of explaining and justifying our existence and therefore behaviour, giving the King and all his men reign to do what ever they like. Yeah.

[whateveryouwantmetobe]

what

[x]

What ?

What doesn't make sense ? I'll try putting it a different way.

[x]

Though I may seem like I talk in riddles, I actually speak in stream of conciousness. I mean, I know what I'm saying, its just hard to say it sometimes. For instance, if I lay things on the line, I get dismissed as being a kook. So I attempt to use examples and metaphors, to appeal to the square community, well my definition of square anyway. They like examples and metaphors, similes, etc. So I try to put my hard to accept ideas in an easier to understand and accept way. But alas, even then it looks like chaos on a computer screen . I must admit though I am used to having very few people feel the same way I do about things. But that still doesnt stop me from having my input into things as I so choose. That is the freedom of my mind.

[x]

Another metaphor, or example of what I'm getting at can be seen in this website forum.

All members on here (x) have a common interest, psychedelics (y), and they congregate here (z), to share that common interest (y). Once established here (z) they begin to diversify their reasons for coming here ever so slightly, this can become (a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o, or p).
Over time (q), their original reason for coming here (y) can sometimes, no longer be their main purpose for visiting this site (z) in the first place. (y), over time (q) could even become totally irrelevant to their reasons for visiting this site (Z) at all. Instead (a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,or p) become their new reasons for visiting this site (z).
But for all intents and purposes it would seem from a far (r) that down here (z) all members (x) are here because of (y) and because the group theme here was always (y) it would seem, from afar, that reasons (a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o, or p) had no immediate importance or significance, and therefore go unnoticed, and un studied.

That is the metaphor all spelt out scientifically in an orderly, rational, scientific manner. Now to make it even more analytical and statistical here is the corresponding symbols to the metaphorical equation.

x = birds, y = magnetoreception, z = their migratory home, r = bird scientist researchers, a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o, or p goes unnoticed, unstudied and unconsidered.  

[luc]

Steppen, if you want people to read your posts you really need to make them more coherent, else other members will dismiss you out of hand even when you do have something interesting to say.  Replacing words with letters like that serves no purpose and no one will even try to read it.

[x]

Steppen, if you want people to read your posts you really need to make them more coherent, else other members will dismiss you out of hand even when you do have something interesting to say.  Replacing words with letters like that serves no purpose and no one will even try to read it.

How is that not coherant, it is simple algebra, this is the science forum, isn't it? I don't get your point? If my post seems to be incoherent that is your loss, if you are interested in making it coherant. I would be happy to explain to you, any points you may be having trouble deciphering.

[foreward]

the esoteric algebra abuse might been a bit wacky, but I don't really see what's so hard to understand what steppenwolf said initially... even if it's a hair off topic.

[luc]

I was refering to the noun substitutions.  Science forum doesn't imply excessive complication.  There is no reason to attemp to read that.  Just because I can isn't sufficient-- I can read a dictionary cover to cover, but I'd sooner eat a bullet.

[prolixity]

Steppen, if you want people to read your posts you really need to make them more coherent, else other members will dismiss you out of hand even when you do have something interesting to say.  Replacing words with letters like that serves no purpose and no one will even try to read it.

No, I tried; however the metaphor fails miserably.

[prolixity]

. I mean what if they think they go on holiday every year, they think its a tradition that they adher to and they do it every year whether the kids like it or not. They carry on thinking like this year after year and before you know it it is so imbedded in they're D.N.A.

Smacks of Lamarckism. 

Is the annual pilgrimmage to Mecca magnetorecption,

Definitely not, unless you're going to posit that muslims are a different species.

We go mad.

Some more than others.

[whateveryouwantmetobe]

So from the sounds of it, they think birds have some kind of extra layer to their vision that colors, shades or else wise identifies their field of view according to what direction it is in. 

[farmerjack]

whales are said to navigate via magnetism.

I thought they just followed the coastlines like everybody else.

[x]

Definitely not, unless you're going to posit that muslims are a different species.

Missing the point, your human arrogance see's no different species in us, just races or cultures.

But the bird kingdom is a different story for every subtle difference they display is reason to create a new sub-species, but they are new species, not race or culture.

What is the difference between, race, culture, species, they are all the same thing, divisive, catagories.

You see whats to say from a birds perspective Muslims would seem like another species compared to say Kenyans.

and as to your implication yes to your straight, controlled, brain washed mind I could seem alittle nuts, its nothing Im not used to straight fucks are everywhere, even here.

[x]

No, I tried; however the metaphor fails miserably.

I can tell you don't like me much, hahahaha.

How did my metaphor fail? What do you think I was saying? and as it failed, how should it have been put?

I mean, if you really just wanted to say, this guy is a wanker, I don't like him, lets diss him, I would have respected you as a man, but saying I fail and then not giving an intelligent reason as to why, well that just smacks of Lamarkism, lol.

[gorfehttimrek]

Nice topic, wouldn't mind seeing a study on human magnetoreception.

I'm sure something is findable on this.  I remember seeing ( ON TV - so it must be true ) a story about a scientist who has a helmet with lots of solenoid coils all over it.  He creates complex magnetic fields that rotate or flip randomly etc.etc.

He says it makes people have experiences that are almost exactly like those described by the so called 'alien abuctees'.  His theory is that localized changes of the magnetic field at the right frequecies are the real cause of the alien abduction claims.  With the recently discovered weakening and resultant increased mixing and general turmoil of the global magnetoshpere, and the newly discovered mini-north pole at the bottom of the south atlantic.  His idea is being looked at again.



What THAT shit...             I ain't skeered to        and do a bang up job of it too! 

Who wants some?

[whateveryouwantmetobe]

whales are said to navigate via magnetism.

I thought they just followed the coastlines like everybody else.

Yea from the sounds of it, it is probably a bit more complicated than that.  I was just thinking about this earlier actually because whales have the property of being born in one location, swimming the ocean across the globe, and then returning to their breeding grounds (and always the same one) to mate when the time comes.  I'm not exactly sure if directional knowledge would be enough to do this effectively though.  They probably have either a memory which permits them to remember the journeys make as a calf with their mother, or alternatively could also use other factors such as water temperature, consistency or contents to help them.  Or the whole brain magnetization sensing thing goes even further than we are aware of, not just telling them their direction with respect to the Earth's magnetic pole, but also their exact location with respect to it.   

[x]

Another point being missed about bird migrational habits are the influence of ocean currents and seasonal winds, these are the factors that influence the patterns of the ocean birds, stand on a beach and watch them for awhile.

[x]

I think that all animals have an organic, internal GPS systems built into them, we have them, whales have them, birds have them, we all have them. Repitition and positive experience are the keys to programming these internal GPS systems.

We Humans have developed external systems to help explain our internal systems, and the more complex the external systems we develop to explain internal systems become, the more distant we soon become from our internal systems, because our new external systems of knowledge are soon governing how we now percieve and use our internal systems of knowledge .

So we have lost for the most part, the ability too, or the faith in our ability too, tap into our built in, instinctual forms of internal knowledge. It now seems that if we don't learn something through a system of regulated external symbols and techniques, then it can't be relevant, or be trusted .

But they are to be trusted, and they are still ,and always will, be trusted. I also believe many animals if not all, still place much faith in these internal systems, and so easily retain the knowledge needed to utilise these internal systems with much sophistication, such of the likes we Humans will never experience as long as we persist in using external techniques of explaining internal behaviour .

Its a scientific catch-22.

[spencer wallace]

So we have lost for the most part, the ability too, or the faith in our ability too, tap into our built in, instinctual forms of internal knowledge. It now seems that if we don't learn something through a system of regulated external symbols and techniques, then it can't be relevant, or be trusted .

blah blah blah

It isn't science until you have evidence. This paper was interesting because it discusses evidence.

[whateveryouwantmetobe]

We do not have an "internal GPS system."  

Whales or bird might, but you no.  

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

External techniques to explain internal behavior is an interesting thought though.  If only because you are suggesting that we cannot fully explain the course of nature, even with our sophisticated tools.  While I agree that certain aspects of us may never be explainable, I do not think I believe your suggestion that as we move one way (external) from another (internal) the two become separated indefinitely.

[x]

We do not have an "internal GPS system."  

Whales or bird might, but you no.  

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

External techniques to explain internal behavior is an interesting thought though.  If only because you are suggesting that we cannot fully explain the course of nature, even with our sophisticated tools.  While I agree that certain aspects of us may never be explainable, I do not think I believe your suggestion that as we move one way (external) from another (internal) the two become separated indefinitely.

You do have an internal GPS system, its buried deep in your DNA, which is a storage faculty of internal system info, and we have lost touch with it, you have lost touch with it bigtime by the sound of it.

You say you are not sure what I'm trying to get at, and from what of read of you so far, that makes alot of sense to me.

You say, I say, that the two system can split indefinately. I never said that at all, what I actually said, is that if we focus to much on one system it sways our opinions of the other, but they never seperate indefinately they are two parts of the greater whole, yin yang. We as humans are dwelling for now in a heavily external state, but we have been almost totally internal in the past and may one day return there.

[x]

blah blah blah

It isn't science until you have evidence. This paper was interesting because it discusses evidence.

You my sir are classic.

You are an ironic example of my external/internal theory.

Especially my line " It now seems that if we don't learn something through a system of regulated external symbols and techniques, then it can't be relevant or trusted."

Your line, Blah blah blah, makes your abilities of comprehension and concentration pretty clear.

Why comment to my posts when you don't even understand them?

[whateveryouwantmetobe]

So what does it mean to have lost touch with something that is buried deep in my DNA?  How do I re-obtain access to it? 

[x]

So what does it mean to have lost touch with something that is buried deep in my DNA?  How do I re-obtain access to it? 

Well these are questions I can't answer . This is what I mean't by it being a scientific catch-22. There is really nothing we can do about it, other than be aware of it. Once we are aware of it, and it becomes common knowledge in the collective mind, then another door will be ready to be opened, and life will always carry on like this .

Maybe this external kick we are on is a mere blip in our evolutionary path and we will at some stage get back to existing in a purely internal manner . Much like 99% of the other animals on this planet, organic robots controlled by a force impossible to comprehend in anyway externally, and if we were to attempt too, we would corrupt it entirely to begin with, and seperate us once again from our pre-ordained internal roles.

I mean I have made alien contact on a few occasions in the past and have always found them to be very sophisticated entities, existing on mental planes far superior to mine . I actually never saw them as being seperate or 'alien' to me, they seemed to be me, but at some far greater end of the evolutionary ladder . They seemed to know how I worked but I not them, ie they seemed far advanced to me.

But in saying that, they seemed cold, they seemed busy within themselves, theys seemed to shun free will and instead be electrified by some internal pre-ordained force, and they seemed to be aware of this and be content with it. Not much like us, but more like all the other organisms who exist with on this planet.

So if we are further advanced than the other animals on this planet, but other universal creatures are more advanced than us and we dwell on the external trip, but the animals and the other universal creatures seem to dwell on an internal trip, then it make me think that this me,me,me, external trip we on as a species at this point in time is an anomaly, and just an evolutionary stage to be experienced.

Its like nothing really matters, but we are driven by some powerful force into thinking it does.

[whateveryouwantmetobe]

How did you make alien contact?

[x]

The same way all lowly organisms such as ourselves have to at this point in time.