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 The Lycaeum Forums » Psychedelics & Non Visionary Related » Visionary Chemicals (Moderator: 2a)Topic:
 How to potentiaite (sic, lol!) the effects of LSD?

[lily]

Using a MAOI such as syrian rue - does it work, and what would the timings be?

I ask because if one's supply of LSD was limited, this could be a useful way to increase effects without draining one's liquid reserves.

I have heard from a friend that it can be eaten with high-cocoa chocolate - a mild MAOI - to increase and extend the peak.

Lily

[2a]

the MAOI generally takes about 45 minutes to come into effect, and 3-5 grams of S. Rue seeds are the recommended dose.  as for timing, I'm not sure; to potentiate, take before the Lucy.  as for extending, I'm not sure when the optimum time would be, maybe three hours into it?

[lily]

cheers.
has your cat tried the combo? does it actually work?

lily

[2a]

never attempted with Lucy, but with other tryps (psilo-huasca) it worked well

[gorfehttimrek]

A good strong "buzz" about 45 minutes to an hour after dropping some weak acid can really make it present itself.  It won't do much for extending the trip although it can potentiate a weak one quite well.

If the acid is strong smoking at the peak can really shake one up.

Kermit

[humby love]

are there neg effects of the mao inhibitors?

[2a]

well, one has to watch certain dietary and medical restrictions when taking an MAOI.  as for actual negative effects, maybe a little stomach agitation, but nothing like nausea.  Harmala alkaloids produce a pleasant, warm, mildly psychedelic mind-state with some mellow CEV's; it makes the boundaries of the body feel a little fuzzy, and makes walking a straight line a little more difficult.

[humby love]

thanx.
can one just go buy these at an herb shop?

[2a]

maybe you should do a bit of research about MAOI's before you go storming out to buy something with them in it.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/maois/maois.shtml

there you'll find cautions, interactions, plant sources, etc.  people just have to be careul with MAOI's because there definitely can be some serious contraindications with several OTC meds and some foods.

[humby love]

sweet,
as usaul white wabbit
i apreciate your lovely contributions

[humby love]

yeah. im a little perturbed by the no-no comboes with MAOIs
thanks for the erowid link.
i can see why (i believe i heard that) people fast before Ayauasca

[gorfehttimrek]

Reactions to tyramine(I think that is the one involved) caused by MaoI vary widely from individual to individual and no one reacts the same way to the same specific isomers purported to have specific effects(thanks big Medicine).

Best advice:  Don't take the chance and discover that your not affected in this specific case, only to screw up and end up in the hospital next year.  If the food contains Tyramine(check spelling on my ass) then don't eat it before consuming an Maoi.

Simple to remember and even though there are mild and short acting maoi's out there, if you just follow this one rule you don't have to remember all the exceptions and what is what etc...ad nauseum concerning names and contraindications and one that are ok with this but not that(bleck!)


Happy sailing,
Kermit

[gnrm23]

& as has been noted elsewhere:
ground ingested syrian rue seeds are going to MANY other alkaloids besides the "desired" harmine & harmaline...

it's not too difficult to extract rather pure HCl salts ofthe harmine & harmaline & just toss all the other stuff--- (kitchen chemistry: vinegar, water, salt, filter paper...maybe some ammonia water(for freebase product - easy for smoking, or for further purification and/or seperation of harmine from harmaline (google: manske hasenfratz peganum harmala)

(didn't we do this last year?)

[kaniz]

Weed can add a nice little boost to LSD.

Also, mixing in something like Ketamine can produce a temporarily increased trip - for the duration of the K-trip at least. Start with low doses, as this can end up getting very weird, very fast - and may leave you in a bit of a confused state wondering "who am I? where am I?" and the vague sensation that you have entered an alternate reality. While interesting, if you get to that point too fast, it can scare one a little.

I've also read various reports that Piracetam and other nootropics can really boost up an LSD trip. You can get these legally from a number of online vendors. SWIM has not had a chance to test it with LSD  But they have tried it with a MDMA+Shrooms, and intend on trying it with LSD soon *(will post back with results when it happens)

With 3 people, two on just MDMA/E (Untested pill)

- both noticed a significant increase of MDMA effects. Clearer high, longer lasting high, less negative after effects
- one noticed that the MDMA got to be very 'trippy' on them - got rather intense visuals

All people were on the same pills

- One person did MDMA+Mushrooms shortly after, he noticed the MDMA was getting a bit 'trippy' also, and ended up dosing a small amount of mushrooms. The visuals from the mushrooms were intense, and very crisp, clear and defined - almost LSD like in nature (far more so than usual)

 They also noted that even when just mixed with weed, it caused increased visuals - while weed is very trippy for them anyways these days, the visuals from the weed were very crisp and detailed, sort of 'photo-realistic' shades of blue and green. With closed eyes, the surface seemed to shimmer like blue water, then a photo-realistic rendition of someone they knew rose out of the water then proceeded to dance. This vision lasted for a long time, esp considering it was just weed and no other drugs.

So, judging by other peoples reports of Piracetam greatly boosting LSDs effects, and their own limited experience with combining it with other drugs, it seems like there is something to be explored there. People have warned to take a small dose of Piracetam and start with half of what you'd normally take with the LSD as the results can be 'wildly intense and unpredictable'

[Mezza]

SWIM has also noticed Piracetams ability to enhance psychedelics.  It increase neural membrane permeability, as well as being somewhat of a neural protectant.  SWIM will not take MDMA without it

[Merf]

Definitely nitrous oxide 

[Theodore]

I collected some comments from a few friends of mine and they say this:

Nootropics (usually piracetam/hydergine/vinpocetine combo with choline for luck)
cleaner more "with-it" trip which was significantly potentiated. Bonus effects of maintaining a fairly functional head (less scatty/fried feeling, less goldfish memory, better weed handling ability etc.). They do seem to create a degree of postural hypotension (especially hydergine) but this is rarely a problem.

Weed
Increases in visuals, physical sensation of the trip and general mind-bending effect. Especially useful towards the latter half and tail end for peaking up the diminishing effect. The problem lies in the fact the clarity is clouded and the morning after one feels more "burnt out" than then pure "afterglow" of acid alone. Still not a bad combo though

Alcohol
Helps calm the nerves (especially good beforehand) and dampen the trip. Too much and you just become "all-round-wasted" but this state can be preferable to a paranoid "pure-acid" trip. Doesnt do much for the bloated feeling some get on acid though

Ketamine
Spins your world out entirely. Depending apon the dose you will have anything from a pleasant "bump" which bring back some euphoric feelings and deepens the trip to a decent line (~100mg) which will lead to what my friends call "mind-fractal". Quite literally feeling that your mind is being split and broken down into pieces, like an expensive champagne glass dropped from a height. Its a great combo but you need to be aware of the potential for confusion and freak-outs, especially at higher doses

Ecstasy/MDMA
Increase visuals and physical sensations but along with that you get some of the less pleasant side effects of the amphetamine which are neatly avoided with acid alone (urinary and sexual dyfunction, heat dysregulation, sweating, gurning etc.). The combo makes the chance of having a happy trip far greater (can be useful for first timers to ensure a happy-trip) and the overall sense of well-being can be enormous. The candy-flip is a great combo.

Mushrooms
Adds a slightly more cloudy "spiritual" trip to the usual clarity and sharp nature of acid. More chance of "flipping-out" but for most this combo is pleasurable and desirable, as long as dosage is well controlled.

Nitrous
Wow, head-explosion intensity. If you have not tried it then its about time you did. If there was ever a combination more divine and supreme then it would not belong to the realms of this world.

Coccaine
Need more energy? Feeling too spaced out? look no further!

Opiates
A calming, warm fuzzy blanket to wrap around your trippy world. Good for sleeping, paranoia or just making things more soft and fuzzy

Diazepam/Benzos
Kill your trip so soon? Good for sleep, especially for killing that audible music in your head that finished 4 hours ago when you left the party. If you cant handle the experience then there is little better than these to take you out of it.

2ci/2ce/2ct7
Friends have some experience with these but reports are too variable. Basically seems to be that 2c-x + LSD = 2c-x to the power LSD or vice-versa. Pretty heavy stuff but if you want to go there, be warned.

5meo-dmt
A little too intense for you average man. Until you are confident you have fried those brain cells good and propper I wouldn't recomment trying this one!

Amphetamine
Does much of what it sais on the tin. Similar if much less visual and fun to MDMA.


Salvia - dont!

A number of other things are nice:
Blue lotus - calming if extract put into wine
Kratom - good calming effect for end of the day

[Dirtyman]

SWIM finds that salvia and LSD go best together after the peak of the acid trip. Throws all those patterns/fractals behind your eyes right into the real world while enveloping all of your existence and blasting yer mind into outer space  As long as you are comfortable with salvia/LSD by themselves you should have no problem.

[Kasumi]

paranoia increases every trip lololol no doubt

[2a]

if you're paranoid, you're too busy checking the windows and listening for cars to even notice the visuals; wasted trip.

[gorfehttimrek]

That paranoia comes from knowing that 1000's of people are all watching everything you do every minute of every day of their lives.  I know I just couldn't get through my life without spying on you for at least 8 hours a day for the next fourty or so years until I die.  You are the center of all our curiosity and we must, no, we HAVE to know everything about you.  We exist for no other purpose.

You are sensing all of us as we STARE at your slightest  movement and gasp in AWE at the amazing things you do.(scratching your armpit and sniffing, or picking a bugger and wiping it on the chair arm).  Honestly, how could we NOT remain hypnotized by your every little action.

You are paranoid for a reason.  You are THAT important!


 ,

Kermit

Nice to see you lurking about still!

[Jah PM]

Agreed on nitrous + LSD .

Nitrous + anything, actually....

[mulletass]

Salvia + LSD is action-packed. The issue is that when SWIM can't remember the salvia peak at all (1 tab acid, syrian rue, one hit of 20X salvia extract). Essentially, SWIM lost 5 minutes of his/her life, which is lame. But the usual "afterglow" of salvia became like a regular salvia trip, or at least a huge acid trip, meaning that after a few minutes of SWIM-doesn't know what (he remembers liking it) he/she had a 25 minute period of not being able to stand or speak. It's like a huge drawn-out salvia trip.

Weed and LSD was something SWIM didn't like, though he/she has only done acid once. This is later in the same trip with the salvia. Too intense. To all who think marijuana is a weak drug, ya'll must have tolerance like something else.

Reefer + aya or shrooms = good
Reefer + acid or peruvian torch = nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..........................

[Chronograph]

Few things are sadder than paranoia interfering with trip. 

Even if it's just a minor interuption/distraction.

Nitrious has been experienced and is highly recommended to really set off.  thought to be best with mushrooms but almost equally awesome with lucy.

[pharmanimal78]

Holy shit! Whatever happened to Humby anyway?

[Papyrifera]

Since Mis brought this thread back from the dead...

Syrian rue and caapi are both excellent as potentiators of LSD. Rendering the experience longer, warmer, fuzzier... and much more visual! A downside is that an annoying residual stimulation/tripping out may occur when really you have already been up all night and just want to go to sleep.

For syrian rue, 3.5 to 5 grams made into tea is the optimum dose for full MAOI effects. One can use as little as 1-2 grams, but if one takes the full dose the difference will be clear. Takes five hours before the body can begin to break down the LSD! Damn.

For caapi as little as 25 grams dried vine equivalent is an effective dose but 50 grams equivalent is better. 100 is pushing your luck, the persistance of effects, body load and stimulation become strong.

In either case, (theoretically) take the MAOI 15 minutes before the LSD for best effect. Oh yeah, and make sure your acid is LSD and not DO-something or other, bromo-dragonFRIED or 5-MeO-AlteredMT.

[farmerjack]

Papy,
Takes five hours before the body can begin to break down the LSD! Damn.

What does this mean exactly?

thanks

[pylkko]

LSD is not metabolized by MAO at all. See:

J. Canezin, A. Cailleux, A. Turcant, A. Le Bouil, P. Harry, P. Allain, Determination of LSD and its metabolites in human biological fluids by high-performance liquid chromatography with electrospray tandem mass spectrometry, Journal of Chromatography B: Biomedical Sciences and Applications, Volume 765, Issue 1, 5 December 2001, Pages 15-27, ISSN 0378-4347, DOI: 10.1016/S0378-4347(01)00386-3.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TG9-43X87GF-5/2/e7efe3ba40decfef8d13d97e7f7e767c)

Abstract:
A liquid chromatographic procedure with electrospray ionization tandem mass spectrometric detection has been developed and validated for LSD and iso-LSD determination. A one-step liquid-liquid extraction on 1 ml blood or urine was used. The lower limit for quantitative determination was 0.02 [mu]g/l for LSD and iso-LSD. The analytical procedure has been applied in two positive cases (case 1: LSD=0.31 [mu]g/l, iso-LSD=0.27 [mu]g/l in plasma and LSD=1.30 [mu]g/l, iso-LSD=0.82 [mu]g/l in urine; case 2: LSD=0.24 [mu]g/l, iso-LSD=0.6 [mu]g/l in urine). LSD metabolism was investigated using MS-MS neutral loss monitoring for the screening of potential metabolites. The main metabolite was 2-oxo-3-hydroxy-LSD (O-H-LSD) present in urine at the concentrations of 2.5 [mu]g/l and 6.6 [mu]g/l, respectively, for case 1 and 2, and was not present in plasma. Nor-LSD was also found in urine at 0.15 and 0.01 [mu]g/l levels. Nor-iso-LSD, lysergic acid ethylamide (LAE), trioxylated-LSD, lysergic acid ethyl-2-hydroxyethylamide (LEO) and 13 and 14-hydroxy-LSD and their glucuronide conjugates were detected in urine using specific MS-MS transitions.

This is from the following: "Brain levels of LSD are not affected by MAO inhibition whereas levels of 5-HT and 5-MT are
significantly elevated."



    Journal Title  - Psychopharmacology
    Article Title  - MAO inhibition and the effects of centrally administered LSD, serotonin, and 5-methoxytryptamine on the conditioned avoidance response in rats
    Volume  - Volume 60
    Issue  - 3
    First Page  - 309
    Last Page  - 310
    Issue Cover Date  - 1979-01-01
   
    Author  - Walter C. Prozialeck
    Author  - Wolfgang H. Vogel
    DOI  - 10.1007/BF00426673
    Link  - http://www.springerlink.com/content/p187u0610n6301n4
   

[Moo]

I am amazed I did not see in this thread!  I don't even remember now if I saw it there before.....  I bet I just saw it and thought, "I've already said this."

Anywho.

Wanted to share about syrian rue.  It does have some synergy.  A lot at times if allowed.

It is mentioned above by Papy about the full dose to be taken etc.

I am sure this is true, but for me personally, anything over 3 grams of rue seeds is way too much.  This body load found may be combated by an extraction though to get more pure harmala alks.  

But indeed, 1-2g of rue seeds, powdered into a tea and drank, does make a very noticeable change to an LSD experience, and makes "enough" of an impact for me.  Your mileage may vary of course, as is stated above that a larger dose is needed.  I just personally find that rue is so strong, that only a little bit is all I can handle.

A little being 2g or so, is enough to make more potent but yet somehow also change the LSD experience in the way of making one feel more at ease in a way.  For me personally, it was easier to lay down and relax and concentrate on the thoughts coming in.  It had a softer and warmer feeling, a more natural feeling.  I loved it at those times.  Also does give a little nausea, which is unfortunate because LSD is normally so clean feeling in that way.

I cannot really say a lot about syrian rue's visual impact when in combination with LSD.  Both are visual, LSD so much more so, that IMO it negated any visual effects lent by S. Rue.


Just some thoughts here.  

And also:

Form Kermit:

You are paranoid for a reason.  You are THAT important!

  Ahh, what a fucking original postl man...... man, what in the hell was that post supposed to BE?!

LSD is not metabolized by MAO at all. See:

J. Canezin, A. Cailleux, A. Turcant, A. Le Bouil, P. Harry, P. Allain, Determination of LSD and its metabolites in human biological fluids by high-performance liquid chromatography with electrospray tandem mass spectrometry, Journal of Chromatography B: Biomedical Sciences and Applications, Volume 765, Issue 1, 5 December 2001, Pages 15-27, ISSN 0378-4347, DOI: 10.1016/S0378-4347(01)00386-3.
(http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/B6TG9-43X87GF-5/2/e7efe3ba40decfef8d13d97e7f7e767c)

Abstract:
A liquid chromatographic procedure with electrospray ionization tandem mass spectrometric detection has been developed and validated for LSD and iso-LSD determination. A one-step liquid-liquid extraction on 1 ml blood or urine was used. The lower limit for quantitative determination was 0.02 [mu]g/l for LSD and iso-LSD. The analytical procedure has been applied in two positive cases (case 1: LSD=0.31 [mu]g/l, iso-LSD=0.27 [mu]g/l in plasma and LSD=1.30 [mu]g/l, iso-LSD=0.82 [mu]g/l in urine; case 2: LSD=0.24 [mu]g/l, iso-LSD=0.6 [mu]g/l in urine). LSD metabolism was investigated using MS-MS neutral loss monitoring for the screening of potential metabolites. The main metabolite was 2-oxo-3-hydroxy-LSD (O-H-LSD) present in urine at the concentrations of 2.5 [mu]g/l and 6.6 [mu]g/l, respectively, for case 1 and 2, and was not present in plasma. Nor-LSD was also found in urine at 0.15 and 0.01 [mu]g/l levels. Nor-iso-LSD, lysergic acid ethylamide (LAE), trioxylated-LSD, lysergic acid ethyl-2-hydroxyethylamide (LEO) and 13 and 14-hydroxy-LSD and their glucuronide conjugates were detected in urine using specific MS-MS transitions.

Thanks u,

So then this is to say that rue combinations or other MAO inhibiting compounds are purely used to add their own feel, not to allow for "more" lsd to be allowed to LIVE.

I did not know this.

[pylkko]

Syrian rue is psychoactive on it's own. I believe that it doesn't potentiate LSD by preventing it's metabolism at all. A MAOI just prevents Monoamine oxidase from turning a monoamine into the corresponding aldehyde. The article researching the metaolites using HPLC-MS does not list an aldehyde.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase