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[The Lycaeum Forums]

 The Lycaeum Forums » Psychedelics & Non Visionary Related » Visionary Chemicals (Moderator: 2a)Topic:
 Why is there so little research on this compound? 4-aco-dmt

[Newfound_wonder]

  Recently a friend of a friend of mine got a hold of the chemical 4-aco DMT.  From what he has been told, 4-aco compounds turn into 4-HO compounds when ingested, so 4-aco DMT turns into 4-HO DMT, or psilocybin, when ingested.  He looked on erowid and the lesser researched compounds survey, but couldn't find hardly any data aside from a few trip reports.  He imagined that a chemical this closely related to psilocybin would have been extremely popular, but it seems as though very few people know about it.  Why is this?

[DrYRHead]

At this point it is very rare. I've heard about it only once before, but have envisioned it's possible existence before that. It is so close to psilocin that any distribution of such would be quickly stopped by the DEA and other narc type cops.

[2a]

I noticed TiHKAL had no entry on it, but then again, it doesn't contain entries for several of the 4-AcO substituted tryptamines.  Erowid has very little info on it as well.
here's a thread from Bluelight that's got some more info on it, including a ratio comparison to psilocin, its about 1:1.5 psilocin:psilacetyn.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=262868

there's also about equally as little info out there about another very intriguing chem, ethocin, or 4-HO-DET.  Its a wonder why some things such as iprocin gain so much recognition, and other gems sit in the dust.

Oh, and welcome to forums, wonder!  Congratulations on your first post, I'm honored to have it be in my forum! 

[Moo]

^^^"MY forum??" How could you say that? 

It is a wonder why some of the more popular ones are more or less popular than the other popular ones, too. What has always been curious to me, is that DPT seems more popular than DiPT, while DiPT was more interesting and enjoyable. IMO. There is not even a DiPT entry on IB's surveys!!!! Sorry to get slightly off topic....

But these chemicals are all still fairly new. I'm sure they will all have their moments come.

Welcome!

[IsomerFairy69]

DPT seems more popular than DiPT, while DiPT was more interesting and enjoyable. IMO. There is not even a DiPT entry on IB's surveys!!!!

Really?? Isn't DiPT like purely auditory?

[Papyrifera]

I think most people find it easier to acquire mushrooms than to get some strange 4-AcO-DMT or 4-OH-DET. Since the effects are expected to be so similar, it seems a bit redundant to be lookng at synthetics.

[2a]

then why does 4-HO-DiPT (iprocin) enjoy such celebrity?  I've always wonder why DPT seems to be so popular considering its so damned expensive!  It also doesn't sound like the experience is exactly what you'd call, um...pleasant. 

[2a]

Really?? Isn't DiPT like purely auditory?

DiPT seems to be primarily auditory in most, but it also appears that some people have a special sensitivity to DiPT and can get quite rich experiences from it.

[Papyrifera]

Technically 4-AcO-DMT isn't scheduled, is it?
Would it be possible to convert psilocybin and/or psilocin to 4-AcO-DMT?

[Moo]

Really?? Isn't DiPT like purely auditory?

I give it an A on the "dosrs" scale. (info in thread below)

Here is a link to the research chemical evaluation thread:

http://forums.lycaeum.org/index.php/topic,4163.0.html

Don't think there's any info on 4-aco-dmt yet there.

[psilocybonaut]

And you're right, 90% of the 4-AcO-DMT is hydroxylized into 4-HO-DMT (psilocin) in the brain.  The other 10% is what they believe accounts for the differences in effects.  There is some debate on whether or not this chemical is an analog of psilocin and therefore Schedule 1, and some vendors are choosing not to sell it anymore due to this.  So stock up!  It's good stuff.

[2a]

some people don't particularly care for psilacetyn.  they say it feels cold, uncaring, somewhat hostile.  like, if it was a person, it'd be irritated that we're hanging around.  it seems to not care for humans, and grudgingly tolerates our presence less than embracing it warmly, like miprocin.  they just couldn't shake this cold, edgy, dehumanizing feeling that persisted the whole trip; but maybe future exploration will lead to different conclusions.  Or maybe it just needs something to warm it up a bit.

[gorfehttimrek]

  Or maybe it just needs something to warm it up a bit.

4-HO-DET is known to this frog as a very good addition to the 2-c family.  The mix more closely resembles remember-ries of days past.   

5mg mixed with a smaller than usual dose of a 2C or taken shortly thereafter will add considerable "head" to the usually bland but colorful landscape of the 2C's

Happy trips to everyone,
Kermit

(It's what?  -- > Shit, this thread ain't dead.  It was just taking a wee nap!  Wakey, wakey)

[2a]

you're damn right, kermit, that's a great mix! 

this was tried a few months ago by some friends with great results.  If I remember correctly, 25mg of 2C-I was followed after one hour by another 20mg of psilocetyn.  The psilo brought what seemed to be a "translucent clarity" to the 2C-I.  It was like a flow of cool, clean water over the whole the experience that made it deeper and more flowing.  We  spent the whole night sitting outside on campus smoking joints, watching security patrol the campus.  At one point, we actually witnessed an attempted break-in to one of the university buildings by someone in a big white unmarked box-truck.  But yes, this combo comes highly reccommended. 

What I hear some people are eager to try is a combo of 2C's with just plain mushies.  I have heard mixed reports about this, however, involving 2C-I and shrooms, but the psilocetyn went over very well, so I see no reason to think the boomers won't go just as well.

[Newfound_wonder]

I think I have an answer to my question of why there is little research on 4-acetoxy-DMT: It is essentially extracted psilocin from mushrooms that has been dipped in acetic acid anhydride (really strong vinegar), and the trip would physiologically be no different from eating mushrooms in a vinegar-based salad.

+  =  +
            Mushrooms (extract)                +              Vinegar             =              Psilocetin                       +         Water


In this reaction:  Acetic acid donates a proton to the -OH group, turning it into an -OH₂⁺ group, which is not very stable.  The CH₃CO^- ion will eventually slam into the -OH₂⁺, and a substitution reaction will take place, leaving 4-aco-DMT and H₂O


Yeah.  4-aco-DMT.  SWIM has had some exposure to this compound in the past few years and remembers 3 distinct trips.

Trip #1:  Subject became convinced that the universe had reached a critical point and was now collapsing back into a singularity.  He realized this while watching Comedy Central reruns, particularly Carlos Mencia and American Body Shop.  During this time, no amount of exterior stimulation could have provided the comfort and suport that he so desperately needed during this trip.

Trip #2:  Subject sniffed 3 large, unmeasured doses over a 75 minute period.  Within a few hours he was practically unconscious on the bed of his dorm room, locked in a sweat.  During this time he felt that he was flying through multi-dimensional space (this trip was a few weeks after he had watched the nova series on String Theory) and being judged for his sins and deeds.  He was poked by his friends during this time (probably to see if the subject was still responding) and the subject perceived these pokes as the prodding of surgical tools coming from aliens from greater dimensions (he had watched the Rosetta Stoned video on youtube).  The moment the subject gained reconsciousness, he believed that he had died a few moments ago and had begun the transition into the next plane of existence.  He assumed that the few people around him were manifestations of the divine creator, and we were all laughing and celebrating a new existence.  In that state, it was actually quite a bummer to the subject when he realized that he had not earned a free ticket to paradise and in fact still had quite a long life ahead of him in this existence.  That trip completely shattered his views on whether our current existence in this universe is actually our first and last, or that the matter that makes us up has been in the universe since the big bang and if our behaviors in this existence have consequences in the next.

From SWIM's experience:  This molecule has the potential to cause panic attacks, profound alterations in perception, sensations of terror, and sensations of bliss among other emotions.  SWIM would advice much more caution when using 4-aco DMT as opposed to 2C-I or other adrenergic and dopaminergic molecules as the presence of 4-aco DMT can have a tremendous influence on a subject's behavior.  SWIM has never felt a 2C-I trip get "on top of him" or "a hold of him", he has never felt like he has lost control with any research chemical except for 4-aco-DMT.

*Note*  It was during his hardcore experimentation with 4-aco DMT that he woke up one morning and decided he wanted to become a neuroscientist; he really wanted to learn about the cycle between his perceptions and beliefs about the world that shape his interface and his attitude about the world. 

[tryp2fun]

I think I have an answer to my question of why there is little research on 4-acetoxy-DMT: It is essentially extracted psilocin from mushrooms that has been dipped in acetic acid anhydride (really strong vinegar), and the trip would physiologically be no different from eating mushrooms in a vinegar-based salad.

+  =  +
            Mushrooms (extract)                +              Vinegar             =              Psilocetin                       +         Water


In this reaction:  Acetic acid donates a proton to the -OH group, turning it into an -OH₂⁺ group, which is not very stable.  The CH₃CO^- ion will eventually slam into the -OH₂⁺, and a substitution reaction will take place, leaving 4-aco-DMT and H₂O

Sorry, your mechanism is wrong.  Acetic anhydride is made from acetic acid by removal of water and combination of two acetic acid molecules.  It is not "really strong vinegar".  Acetylation of a phenol with acetic anhydride takes place under acid catalysis (a drop of H₂SO₄ would do).  Protonation of the carbonyl of acetic anhydride allows the phenolic oxygen to add to the carbonyl to form a tetrahedral intermediate.  Elimination of acetic acid from the tetrahedral intermediate gives the phenol acetate.

[Newfound_wonder]

O yeah.  I forgot about anhydrides.  For clarification:

       

Acetic acid                               Acetic anhydride


Ok, so in light of tryp2fun's information, the equation would be better expressed using this model:

+    --->  +
            Mushrooms (extract)                +              Acetic anhydride    in the presence of  H⁺             Psilocetin                       +         Acetic acid



Granted, the acetylation of psilocin occurs under acid-catalyzed conditions, and it is psilocin slamming into the protonated acetic anhydride (CH₃COH⁺OCOCH₃) that forms a tetrahydral intermediate and eliminates acetic acid.  Props to the Chemists who have a better understanding of the world than I.

Do I have it straight now?     Regardless, psilocin and o-acetylpsilocin are about as similar as psilocin and psilocybin.  This would also mean that mixing psilocin powder in vinegar would be a bad idea.  If one had access to thionyl chloride, then mixing thionyl chloride with acetic acid would form CH₃COCl, which would react with CH₃COOH, forming a tetrahydral intermediate and eliminating H₂O.

I really need to pick my Chemistry book up from my friend's house, I feel naked without being able to look these mechanisms up.

[GaryJ]

A friend once assayed oral 4-aco-dmt... results were very "dark" visions... that is, CEVs that were very dark-hued like in a dark cavern but similar to the 'swirling blobs of color' phase in a DMT ingestion...then a perception of a cloud-like being about the size of a thunderstorm trying repeatedly to "taste" and penetrate him.  Bizarre and not really fun...but he thinks it might be worth another try....

Cheers,
GaryJ

[DrYRHead]

4-HO-DET is known to this frog as a very good addition to the 2-c family.  The mix more closely resembles remember-ries of days past.   

5mg mixed with a smaller than usual dose of a 2C or taken shortly thereafter will add considerable "head" to the usually bland but colorful landscape of the 2C's

Happy trips to everyone,
Kermit

(It's what?  -- > Shit, this thread ain't dead.  It was just taking a wee nap!  Wakey, wakey)

Jimmy had some dreams along those lines before.

[DayLight]

to reanimate an old thread...ive tried this compound on several occasions and i cannot imagine this would be what pure psilocin feels like. it has glaring similarities but i also notice body high and load more akin to DMT. as well as the patterns being more along the lines of DMT rather than mushrooms. not in intensity but in form and shape.

the first time i smoked DMT when the visions engulfed me i felt like i could not breathe, this frightened me and ruined the trip...i was just trying to breathe the whole time while surrounded in frightening visions...this has hindered all my later attempts with the substance also...i can breathe but it feels like i cannot and its very real and intense. this happens w/ 4-aco-dmt also. not with mushrooms

the main thing is i cant imagine pure psilocin being this cold...its very fun but it lacks the magic of mushrooms.

[DrYRHead]

to reanimate an old thread...I've tried this compound on several occasions and i cannot imagine this would be what pure psilocin feels like. it has glaring similarities but i also notice body high and load more akin to DMT. as well as the patterns being more along the lines of DMT rather than mushrooms. not in intensity but in form and shape.

the first time i smoked DMT when the visions engulfed me i felt like i could not breathe, this frightened me and ruined the trip...i was just trying to breathe the whole time while surrounded in frightening visions...this has hindered all my later attempts with the substance also...i can breathe but it feels like i cannot and its very real and intense. this happens w/ 4-aco-dmt also. not with mushrooms

the main thing is i cant imagine pure psilocin being this cold...its very fun but it lacks the magic of mushrooms.

Lil' Jimmy recalls something like that happening on 5-MeO-DMT before. It was like he was scared that he would forget how to breath.